tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post3377644738371017287..comments2023-11-24T06:43:02.286+00:00Comments on Aspicientes in Jesum: Anglo-Catholicism; acquiring the Capital C.Pastor in Montehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05949810648656544072noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-49815019905599243652009-10-25T08:29:00.622+00:002009-10-25T08:29:00.622+00:00The Pope's decision is profoundly shocking. Wh...The Pope's decision is profoundly shocking. Whatever happened to the ecclesiology of communion? Is he really in his dotage now, or just very badly advised?<br /><br />I think I'll go and re-read Tillard's "Church of Churches".The Cardinalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05353340104187659373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-52425660819240817002009-10-23T18:10:57.286+01:002009-10-23T18:10:57.286+01:00I worry that Cardinal Levada has mistaken the way ...I worry that Cardinal Levada has mistaken the way the C of E functions for the way the Episcopal Church functions in the USA. In the latter there is no 'Anglo-Papalist' tradition to speak of. In the UK there is. But will its members want to abandon their cherished pick-and-mix liturgical styles and their long held determination to ignore their bishop? How will it feel for them to subject to some sort of ecclesial accountability instead of being high church congrgationalists? And, of course, the last thing they will want is an Anglican Rite.<br />(So why go now if they have not gone before? you might well ask.)Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01550530456274522081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-1783079049859083832009-10-23T17:52:11.467+01:002009-10-23T17:52:11.467+01:00Sorry, Norah, I don't know.Sorry, Norah, I don't know.Pastor in Montehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05949810648656544072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-21256780254568059212009-10-23T14:17:04.268+01:002009-10-23T14:17:04.268+01:00The rest of the Anglican Communion (liberals)shoul...The rest of the Anglican Communion (liberals)should face the fact that they are no longer a "Communion". And just let all Anglicans decide whether they wish to be in communion with either Rome or Constantinople (with Apostolic Succession). Or be part of secular society. As for the Church property, it would be better to let the departing parish have it. What are they going to do. Sell it to the Muslims or just let it rot away!. That is real smart and Christian!.beckethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00313592795305384910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-88995495145506970522009-10-23T10:53:26.154+01:002009-10-23T10:53:26.154+01:00Rowan complains that he was not consulted, and sim...<i>Rowan complains that he was not consulted, and simply informed a fortnight before the announcement. </i><br /><br />I have read in other places that only two days notice was given. Which is correct do you know?Norahnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-62086619722084757902009-10-22T21:27:59.566+01:002009-10-22T21:27:59.566+01:00Malcolm, I am really interested. Why would people ...Malcolm, I am really interested. Why would people convert now and not before? I spent a lot of time last year reading "papalist" Anglo-Catholic blogs, and was completely baffled. I know the Pope knows better than me, I am perfectly happy with his judgement. Tell me more!berenikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16917803593444075354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-35991035888121307122009-10-22T17:13:34.332+01:002009-10-22T17:13:34.332+01:00I congratulate you, Father, on an excellent, thoro...I congratulate you, Father, on an excellent, thorough appraisal of the situation so far as it can currently be appraised.<br /><br />I did meet Fr Hunwicke earlier in the summer when I attneded a weekday Mass at his church and I greatly enjoyed the experience. He is, indeed, one of a dying breed of very knowledgable Anglo Catholic priests whose abilities have been wasted because they don't quite "fit in".<br /><br />We must wait and see what happens and at the same time pray very hard on both sides of the Tiber. On the face of it (speaking as as "papalist" Anglo Catholic layman who has worshipped and provided choir and organ music in the Anglo Catholic churches of Brighton for many decades) it is more than I ever dared hope for and I am optimistic.<br /><br />I hope there will be demonstrations of real charity on all sides at basic grass roots levels. Some of the comments made by (R)C laity about Anglicans on some blogs are not too good on charity and Christian tolerance and not all (R)C priests who write blogs are as kind about us as you are, Father - especially locally. That said, a lot of Anglicans are just as unkind about Catholics and this is equally regrettable. In both cases I am sure it is down to ignorance and fear.<br /><br />I am extremely grateful to Pope Benedict for what he has done this week. I hope we can all, on both sides of the Tiber, pray and lsiten to the Holy Spirit in a spirit of charity, penitence and humility.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11447511252614433412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-7358064573072062862009-10-22T08:28:24.463+01:002009-10-22T08:28:24.463+01:00A very interesting piece of writing.
I would have...A very interesting piece of writing.<br /><br />I would have thought it probably best to 'wait and see' what happens. I rather doubt that there will be many people from the UK involved. The majority of Anglicans who objected to the ordination of women crossed the Tiber a decade or more ago. <br /><br />Overall the growth sector in the Anglican Church has been in the evangelical wing and I suspect that growth, and shift away from 'papalist' Anglicanism will be actually bolstered by yesterday's news.BJRnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-66664249650338781042009-10-22T01:50:07.582+01:002009-10-22T01:50:07.582+01:00High church Anglicans/Episcopals have long puzzled...High church Anglicans/Episcopals have long puzzled me -- i.e. what kept them from swimming the Tiber en masse a long time ago -- particularly over the issue of the Eucharist itself. In other words, how can belief in "the Real Presence" be optional? Will they accept Mary as the Immaculate Conception with all that implies? <br /><br />Not to rain on any parades, and I hope this all turns out well, but what does the average high-church anglican think of birthcontrol, ditto abortion? Do they realize that they will all have to be confirmed? [We have enough cafeteria Catholics as it is!]<br /><br />Has it really sunk in that when they visit somewhere else, that doesn't have an "anglican rite" use they can't fulfill a Sunday obligation by attending a low church Anglican service?<br /><br />The Anglicans have been bleeding high-church off to Catholics (and in some places the orthodox) -- but has it sunk in that eventually tea with the Vicar's wife won't be something that's going to happen?<br /><br />I think the average Anglican priest converting gets all these implications ... I'm not so sure about Joe Toff who just doesn't particularly like women priests or gay bishops.... i.e. more a high-church Anglican by social convention, rather than conviction.<br /><br />It was the Lambeth Conference, in 1930 that was the FIRST relgious body to approve the use of artificial B.C.gemoftheoceanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05521207668262592414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-31268178116100832572009-10-22T00:25:24.214+01:002009-10-22T00:25:24.214+01:00Brilliant and thoughtful as ever, Father. Thank y...Brilliant and thoughtful as ever, Father. Thank you.Mater marinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-17190805786066574202009-10-21T20:42:19.554+01:002009-10-21T20:42:19.554+01:00Surely one should become a Catholic because of bel...Surely one should become a Catholic because of belief in the Church,not because the C of E would not allow the Traditional Anglicans to have their own parishes with only male clergy and flying Bishops etc etc.If their demands were met by the C of E how many would still consider becoming Catholics?MC Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14950845400638779751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-606443444225763872009-10-21T17:54:53.280+01:002009-10-21T17:54:53.280+01:00I have not met Fr Hunwicke and know none who knew ...I have not met Fr Hunwicke and know none who knew him in his various incarnations. I enjoy his website and admire his learning. I realise that, since retirement, he has made an impression in obscurantist Oxford circles. He embodies an almost vanished type of Anglo-Catholic cleric who acquired an immensity of learning without being able to take the fruits to their logical conclusion. He must be one of the last, if not the last, of the breed. But, unlike them and their life-long burial in remote rural livings, he has sailed the boats in the Church of England and accommodated himself wherever he has served - whether the moderate Anglo-Catholicism of Lancing or the plats de jour of a distant group of Devon parishes where congregationalism rules.<br /><br />But objectively he has only been able to apply his obscurantism freely within the precarious confines of a retired Anglican clergyman who lives in a vicarage in return for duty at what happily chances to be a beautifully furnished, if sparsely attended, pioneer Anglo-Catholic church which has long lost any pastoral justification for existence. There he can do as he pleases, hence the melange of liturgical idiosycracy on offer on a daily basis. There he can broadcast his learning and elegiac opinions to the world via information technology.<br /><br />For clerics like him, the Holy Father's invitation to move on to a pastoral provision (to adopt Anglican terminology) for Catholic-minded Anglicans within the Church is going to be the acid test of his integrity. Come in, says the Holy Father, bring what you can retrieve and I shall bless it if it conforms to truth. But will he, and others not so learned as him but just as comfortable, be willing to make the sacrifice and move from a Baroquised medieval church into a Catholic scout hut?<br /><br />How marvellous it would be to see St Thomas's, St Mary and St John' and St Barnabas', Oxford (not much hope of St Mary Mag's these days), even the sublime monastic premises of St Stephen's House, reconciled to the Church and made freely available for sanitized Anglo-Catholic worship. But is this likely, not least because will there be enough Oxford Anglo-Catholics left to support them. And would many well-established Oxford lay converts want to return to these shrines after getting used to worshipping at St Aloysius and the line of Catholic halls of residence in St Giles going on to the river? There is already something for everybody in Oxford Catholic life without adding these exquisite mausolea to the choice.<br /><br />Then comes Pusey House. I think the entire Anglo-Catholic remnant could easily move in to the chapel and still leave a little room for others. If Fr Hunwicke has to give up his vicarage I doubt if there would be much room for him in the residential quarters as these are occupied by St Cross but, living on a pension as he does, he might be able to rent his own accomodation? Who knows?<br /><br />I am not picking on him gratuitously as an individual but using him as an illustration of the dilemma that the Holy Father's scheme is likely to create for those who most desire (or perhaps do not actually desire?) it. The pickle of current Anglo-Catholicism as you well identify, Fr Finnegan, is going to take a great deal of resolution. But the Oxford microcosm can be applied to many other English cities and other benefices and clergymen - retired, married or single - and I think it offers a useful illustration of the problem as a whole. What, I wonder, will be the Archbishop-Elect of Birmingham's attitude to this problem, and also that of the present Bishop of Oxford? Whatever emerges is going to be a headache.Peter Porternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-63744195573390555852009-10-21T15:06:02.754+01:002009-10-21T15:06:02.754+01:00A very gracious post, Father.A very gracious post, Father.Little Black Sambohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16699227938165106710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-42692340356376258402009-10-21T15:02:47.863+01:002009-10-21T15:02:47.863+01:00Brilliant post Father. Perhaps the most even-hande...Brilliant post Father. Perhaps the most even-handed appraisal I have seen concerning the practical questions implicit in this whole event.K. Kimtishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04018286166927935916noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-3248372730178321772009-10-21T12:26:50.328+01:002009-10-21T12:26:50.328+01:00Marvellous post. Thank you. Can you clarify what ...Marvellous post. Thank you. Can you clarify what happens in the States re 'Anglican Use'? Presumably, they use Anglican liturgies which are appropriately 'revised' to be in accord with Catholic doctrine?St John's, Horshamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16438639144248591803noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-78518137662691505912009-10-21T10:53:04.359+01:002009-10-21T10:53:04.359+01:00I find it very difficult to understand how attachm...I find it very difficult to understand how attachment to Anglicanism could have prevented people from becoming Catholics if they realised they weren't. I can understand that one might find it so "irrationally", through weakness (and I don't mean that in a condemnatory or superior sense, but in the sense that I see myself not do as I know I ought), but it seems to have been a matter of principle. And the Fr Hunwickes baffle me more than any others: he crowed with such delight over the sacrilegious "stealing" of orders he described. <br /><br />It's all very strange. But I think the Pope has a marvellously sure sense of what the Church is, and think he has done well.berenikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16917803593444075354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-13346807381785912442009-10-21T10:33:25.115+01:002009-10-21T10:33:25.115+01:00In the torrent of journalism and comment this deci...In the torrent of journalism and comment this decision is likely to receive, I warmly congratulate you on the best, most realistic, informed and comprehensive article so far published. Your analysis of the difficulties is particularly valuable. Nontheless, I agree with Steven in his view that the best way forward to submission to the Holy See is individual reception. Residual Anglo-Catholicism is no longer the coherent body that it was and many of the laity who attend Anglo-Catholic services do so either beacause they like the vicar or enjoy decorated worship but have no clarity of belief.<br /><br />The problem of clerics with boyfriends is, alas, disproved by some of the gay Anglican clergymen who converted after 1992 and now, as Catholic priests, still enjoy putting their toes in murky waters from time to time on the basis of what they have discovered existing among some Catholic clergy. Unwelcome as that fact is, in honesty in needs to be addressed.Peter Porternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-62880833088572793652009-10-21T10:17:21.296+01:002009-10-21T10:17:21.296+01:00As to the question of Church property can you envi...As to the question of Church property can you envisage a local Catholic Ordinary who is faced with the prospect of closing a parish and selling off the land because of lack of vocations actually offering the site to an Anglo-Catholic parish to use for itself? I can think of several Polish and Ukrainian parishes which are housed in former Anglican churches.Sussex Catholicnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-59883951017390703582009-10-21T10:06:14.744+01:002009-10-21T10:06:14.744+01:00There is another category of people who are left i...There is another category of people who are left in bizarre positions - Anglican Clergy who became Catholic laymen. Do we suddenly gained the faculty to function?<br /><br />No! I think the Bishops Conference of Low Week '92 may still be the best way forward. Individual sumbission the the See of Peter is the cleanest solution.Stevennoreply@blogger.com