tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post1860740866482390245..comments2023-11-24T06:43:02.286+00:00Comments on Aspicientes in Jesum: The Legal Status of the Sarum MassPastor in Montehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05949810648656544072noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-89653068481056194742015-06-16T02:45:27.358+01:002015-06-16T02:45:27.358+01:00Dear Father,
Thank you for this informative artic...Dear Father,<br /><br />Thank you for this informative article on the Sarum Rite, and on the <i>dubium</i> placed on the practice of that Rite by the Roman Congregation of Rites. I am in the process of writing a response to that <i>dubium</i>, in which I conclude the following:<br /><br />1. The Sarum Rite was practiced continuously from the late Eleventh Century A.D. and at least until 1577, seven years after the promulgation of <i>Quo Primum</i>;<br /><br />2. The Sarum Rite therefore fully qualifies for the permission granted in <i>Quo Primum</i> for its continued liturgical use;<br /><br />3. The decision of English Catholic Bishops in the 19th Century to use the Tridentine Rite in preference to the Sarum Rite by no means abrogates the permission delineated in #2 for its continued use;<br /><br />4. The canonical concept of <i>desuetude</i> is inapplicable to the Sarum Rite, as Canon 2 of both the Pian/Benedictine Canon Law and the 1983 edition state clearly that Canon Law is inapplicable to Roman Catholic Liturgical practice;<br /><br />5. Therefore, the Sarum Rite is of equal dignity with such other rites as the Gallican, the Mozarabic, and the Ambrosian, and is therefore invested with the plenary permission of use granted by <i>Sacrosanctum Concilium</i>.<br /><br />If the text of the <i>dubium</i> is still extant and in your possession, I would therefore greatly appreciate it if you were either to publish it in your weblog, or to give me the opportunity of reading it privately.<br /><br />In order to help you, should you wish to e-mail me privately, my e-mail address is bfbrandtAThotmailDOTCOM. (Please forgive me for altering the sections capitalized, but I wish to avoid being inundated with spam e-mail.<br /><br />Thanking you in advance for the courtesy of a reply, I am<br /><br />Very truly yours,<br /><br />Bernard BrandtBernard Brandthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00159541603126407072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-41995864315189509892011-05-14T12:25:20.009+01:002011-05-14T12:25:20.009+01:00I am surprised at the viciousness and inaccuracy o...I am surprised at the viciousness and inaccuracy of this article's references to "X". I would have thought that a priest, talking of an event almost 15 years ago would have had in mind the expression "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us". <br />I assume that I am "X" and can assure everyone that my motives were entirely honourable: I did not intend to cause trouble, nor to try to influence the Society of St Osmund to open rebellion. It was purely out of curiosity that I wrote to Cardinal Hume, it was the Cardinal who told me to write to the Liturgical Commission and they told me to write to Rome. I was as appalled as everyone else at Rome's misinterpretation of my purely academic query as a complaint - and at the way they used my name in the letters they sent out. he uncharitable treatment which I received from various individuals in the aftermath of this affair contributed to a breakdown and reflects very poorly on those individuals. With hindsight, I should never have asked, but I do not think that it is I who comes worst out of this sorry affair. You then go on in this article to make incorrect statements about my subsequent spiritual journey which you acknowledge to be "hearsay" - so why set a bad example by repeating it, Father? As for the person calling themselves Tom (I have no idea who they are, the only possible candidate I can think of being someone whom I last had contact with in 1994): if it is "unstable" to follow one's conscience, to seek always to act with integrity, to see the contradictions in a theological position which exalts the powers of the Papacy whilst going against the entire thrust of their liturgical teachings, then I am happy to accept that label. <br />I'm sure you will not allow this comment to appear and I am only offering my thoughts in this way because there does not seem to be any other way of contacting you on the blog - please prayerfully consider what I have said and let go of this particular grudge if you can.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-88053128734919449032010-03-24T02:07:53.147+00:002010-03-24T02:07:53.147+00:00I have been reading the entries on your blog about...I have been reading the entries on your blog about the Usus Salisburiensis with keen interest.<br /><br />Some years ago I was consoled to hear of your activities when staying in Oxford with Uwe Lang, and somewhat dissappointed to hear of your eventual difficulties. <br /><br />I am pleased to have found your blog and further information about the events which occured. <br /><br />The more recent comments on this subject would seem to revive hope in the possibility for the celebration of the various English Uses, No?<br /><br />A couple of things have occured to me in recent times with regard to the newer rite "in the light of tradition" often refered to as "the hermaneutic of continuity" (perhaps the 1st is a little broader)when reading Sacrosanctum Concilium.<br /><br />The notion of "inculturation" is open to interpretation but it must surely exlude incompatible pagan practices, but why could it not include aspects of English pratice such as:<br /><br />1)The Veni Creator and prepatory prayers in the Sacristy<br />2)The Sarum Tropes in place of "Lord you where sent to heal the contrite" in the penitential formula<br />3)Preces in place of the Prayers of faithful<br />4) an offertory procession form the Lady Chapel.<br /><br />Etc. etc. etc. I think you see where I am going with this.<br /><br />It would be streching the friendship, but not impossible, for us in Australia to claim such "inculturation" despite our settlement by English, Irish Scottish and Welsh immigrants. <br /><br />I do recall some 5 years ago using the Sarum Propers (the text being the same as the Roman)and a Byrd setting of the Ordinary at the Usus Antiquior - It was this that gave me the idea about the Usus Recentior. No doubt, you have already thought of all this.<br /><br />I suppose in these days of discussion on matters patrimonial, some of these observations may be a way of Anglisising the liturgy in a truly Catholic and tradtional way - the Sarum Use and it's other cousins are strangley a common patrimonial ground for Anglicans (of the Anglorum Ceotibus variety)and English Latin Cathoilcs.<br /><br />Surely the sarum rite is a bridge of unity with those who where seperated providing an authenically catholic rite which both can claim. <br /><br />It's restoration and rehabilitation would a significant sign healing of the terrible wounds of the English reformation. Am I preaching to the choir...?<br /><br />The SibylThe Sibylhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02540910187441941952noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-88871594086181496652009-11-24T03:05:41.793+00:002009-11-24T03:05:41.793+00:00I think that Summorum Pontificum has provided the ...I think that Summorum Pontificum has provided the needed clarification: no special permission is necessary to celebrate according to the Sarum Use. In my opinion this also applies to other British uses (e.g. York, Bangor).Jimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07594145058275340399noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-20093431722813593192009-09-05T17:32:07.804+01:002009-09-05T17:32:07.804+01:00Since the PCED has now stated that Summorum Pontif...Since the PCED has now stated that Summorum Pontificum applied to the Ambrosian Rite (since it was a legitimate rite in 1962) would this mean that the Sarum Use can now be said under the provisions of SP? I would think that it could be since although the Sarum Use was not being used in 1962 it was still a valid rite of the Church at that time never having been abolished and also because it was a protected use according to Quo Primum. Am I off base in assuming this?Mitchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07331688544544080299noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-51975077415424039022008-03-23T19:39:00.000+00:002008-03-23T19:39:00.000+00:00A little hint to all of those who are interested i...A little hint to all of those who are interested in the Sarum Use and the liturgy in general:<BR/><BR/>There is a possibility that the Sarum Use may be celebrated in an Oxford college in the not-so-very-distant-at-all future. <BR/><BR/>I may, possibly be involved, and am very anxious to gather academic and rubrical materials that pertain to the Sarum Use. I'm also very keen to contact people who perhaps ministered at the previous Masses at Merton.<BR/><BR/>Concerning the legal status, contact with the Congregation for Divine Worship has yielded positive results, insofar as Archbishop Ranjith has indicated that the Congregation is perfectly comfortable that the Sarum Use be celebrated, and that no formal permission is needed (though out of common courtesy one should request, or even inform, the Ordinary of the Mass's occurence).<BR/><BR/>If you may be able to assist on the rubrics side, please contact me at:<BR/><BR/>oxford_mc1@yahoo.co.uk<BR/><BR/>+ The blessings of the Risen Lord to allAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-54493078428510535342008-03-03T10:19:00.000+00:002008-03-03T10:19:00.000+00:00I do not have a photograph of St. George's Sudbury...I do not have a photograph of St. George's Sudbury but I will be having dinner soon with someone who used to be part of the serving team under Fr. Clement. I will certainly find out whether he has some photographs.<BR/><BR/>It really was quite exquisite. If I recall correctly apart from the choir there was a Lady Chapel, Mortuary Chapel and Blessed Sacrament Chapel. In the latter there was a silver pyx in the form of a galleon although I am unsure whether Fr. Clement got away with using that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-63962726083664542652008-03-02T11:19:00.000+00:002008-03-02T11:19:00.000+00:00Could the other anonymous, or someone else link to...Could the other anonymous, or someone else link to or provide a photo of St. George's as it used to be?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-3053137564697687432008-03-01T23:24:00.000+00:002008-03-01T23:24:00.000+00:00Fascinating, Father , and good to have you back bl...Fascinating, Father , and good to have you back blogging.Paulinushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07764882488839589040noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-34037808254181240152008-03-01T23:12:00.000+00:002008-03-01T23:12:00.000+00:00Some random observations:I'm sure you're right abo...Some random observations:<BR/><BR/>I'm sure you're right about the moral and canonical issues.<BR/><BR/>There is a fine, succinct chapter on the Sarum Use in Martin D. Stringer's recent 'Sociological History of Christian Worship'. Not sure I agree with all of his conclusions, but his descriptions of liturgical life in high medieval Salisbury are mouth-watering! Why can't we have it all back?<BR/><BR/>I have been told that the Sarum Use was mentioned in the famous correspondence in the 'Rambler' at the time of the Restoration of the Hierarchy, but I have never taken the trouble to follow up the reference.<BR/><BR/>Re. Sarum in the dear old C of E: I am not sure when Anglicans got interested in adapting the Sarum rubrics for the communion service, but there was great interest in the Sarum breviary as early as the 1830s - Newman was even involved in an abortive scheme to translate it for Anglican use.<BR/><BR/>I have heard reports of presbytery cupboards stuffed with vestments at Sudbury. Could it be that Fr Russell's green copes survive? Some vestments from there found their way into the sacristy at Ealing Abbey, and though they were fine (I recall, I think, a rose low Mass set) they did not strike me as particularly Sarum-ish.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-42112007616821265852008-02-29T23:12:00.000+00:002008-02-29T23:12:00.000+00:00Thanks for the notes about Fr Clement Russell. I'm...Thanks for the notes about Fr Clement Russell. <BR/><BR/>I'm currently creating a database on the clergy of Westminster with short biographies, so any other information or anecdotes about him would be appreciated (you can always post them as comments on Roman Miscellany). Thanks.Fr Nicholashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00167592634288375599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-2219676059933175432008-02-29T23:03:00.000+00:002008-02-29T23:03:00.000+00:00A great read, Father. Thank you so much for taking...A great read, Father. Thank you so much for taking the trouble to write it. I have a particular interest in the Church's liturgy and this detail about the Sarum Use is valuable. It would be wonderful if a dubium could be resolved.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-55982977003810624292008-02-29T22:43:00.000+00:002008-02-29T22:43:00.000+00:00Regarding the legal status - have you asked Fr.Z?!...Regarding the legal status - have you asked Fr.Z?!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-85246080596787999372008-02-29T18:40:00.000+00:002008-02-29T18:40:00.000+00:00I was at the earlier Oxford mass, and enjoyed it v...I was at the earlier Oxford mass, and enjoyed it very much. I knew 'X' slightly, and considered him a slighly unstable young man (if we have the same X in mind - like you I only heard rumour). Clearly it would be good if we could clear up the canonical position. I wonder what the best way would be to go about it?<BR/><BR/>TomAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-37809448420824313602008-02-29T15:49:00.000+00:002008-02-29T15:49:00.000+00:00Having mentioned the late, and much lamented Fr. C...Having mentioned the late, and much lamented Fr. Clement Russell may I add (albeit off topic) that he was quite a remarkable man. He had sung Mass, along with first and second vespers for all feasts double of the second class and above (and, I think, also mattins and lauds for some feasts).<BR/><BR/>Apart from the Cathedral I understand St. George's Sudbury was the only church in the Westminster Archdiocese where one could find solemn three cope vespers on Saturday afternoons. A freind of mine told me how he had been in Walsigham many years ago and had lamented not being able to get solemn vespers that particular Saturday afternoon. My friend said "Before you could say <I>Deus, in adjutorium</I> a coach drew up and Fr. Clement disembarked along with three green copes..."<BR/><BR/>Fr. Clement had some argument with a Vicar General, I understand, about his use of only two candlesticks on the altar (very Sarum). The VG wanted him to have six. Apparently Fr. Clement agreed to have six candlesticks if the VG would ensure that all other churches removed two and four candlesticks on the appropriate days as required by the <I>Caeremoniale</I>. Fr.Clement never changed his arrangement. Sadly he was run over by a motorcycle in the mid 1960s. His wonderful church survived intact, except for a 'kitchen table' being added until the mid-1990s: sadly it was then completely re-ordered (aka destroyed).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-15419112508067579612008-02-29T12:14:00.000+00:002008-02-29T12:14:00.000+00:00"I am a Catholic, after all, and though I think th..."I am a Catholic, after all, and though I think that the Roman decision was badly made—I must quote one line from it: 'in fact the Roman Missal promulgated by the late Pope Paul VI is of superior quality to previous editions from all points of view'—nonetheless if we are not obedient, if we do not cleave to the rock, then the Church would disintegrate. It will not suffer for the loss of the Sarum Liturgy—I would not say the same for the Traditional Rite generally."<BR/><BR/>Father, blind obedience is never catholic.<BR/><BR/>Besides, obedience is never the only principle operative in a situation where one has reasonable doubts as to the goodness of a superior's command. Prudence, for example, is always a virtue that takes precedence.<BR/><BR/>The church WILL suffer from the loss of the Sarum, just as it has suffered from a lot of other abuses, exaggerations and extravagances in the name of ultramontanism. The present crises in the church is partly the result of the consistent, and unconscionable abuse of power by many a superior in pre-conciliar novitiates, religious houses, seminaries, etc, etc.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-79421391618665737092008-02-29T07:20:00.000+00:002008-02-29T07:20:00.000+00:00A note for Fr. Gregory: Whilst Fr. Clement Russel...A note for Fr. Gregory: Whilst Fr. Clement Russell did not use the Sarum rite at Sudbury he did 'sarumise' the Roman rite. I understand from those who attended his liturgy that it was very fine indeed: acolytes in tunicle, coped cantors etc. and his Mass without sacred ministers was considered, by my source at least, better than any High Mass in the Diocese.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-44142163140601319792008-02-28T23:04:00.000+00:002008-02-28T23:04:00.000+00:00No struggling necessary Father - it was very inter...No struggling necessary Father - it was very interesting.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-76089966603520811972008-02-28T22:16:00.000+00:002008-02-28T22:16:00.000+00:00On the archives front - I haven't come across anyt...On the archives front - I haven't come across anything relating to the Sarum Use in the Wiseman papers, though as we continue to catalogue and digitalise our documents we may find something. <BR/><BR/>It is often said that the re-introduction of the Sarum Usage was considered at the time of the Restoration of Hierarchy, but I've found no evidence at all to support this. <BR/><BR/>Another diocesan 'myth' is that St George's, Sudbury (near Harrow) was designed for the Sarum liturgy - this would have been around 1924 - but, although the church is medieval in style, I've found no evidence to back this up. Unfortunately.Fr Nicholashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00167592634288375599noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-24896994453264538482008-02-28T19:40:00.000+00:002008-02-28T19:40:00.000+00:00Thank you, father, for a fascinating series of vi...Thank you, father, for a fascinating series of videos of the Sarum Mass at Oxford.<BR/><BR/>Your most recent post on the history of the Sarum Rite is likewise fascinating.<BR/><BR/>I full agree with what has been said. <BR/><BR/>Notwithstanding the dubium from the Congregation of Rites, it is not clear that the use of the Sarum Missal had truly died out at the time of "Quo Primum", and therefore it was not abrogated by it.Dr. Peter H. Wrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13955402188119575105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-29309156420750661742008-02-28T19:18:00.000+00:002008-02-28T19:18:00.000+00:001) The Mary Rose Requiem was an Anglican do; I rem...1) The Mary Rose Requiem was an Anglican do; I remember it. They were very careful to provide the same choreography as the drowned sailors would have expected in the year they died.<BR/>There was also a 'liturgical reconstruction' done in the Chapel Royal of Hampton Court palace in 1997, the same year as the Merton Candlemas do. Andrew Carwood was involved for the music, and I understand they used actors for the sacred ministers.<BR/>2) I wouldn't really care to venture an opinion: I suppose they come under the same banner as Sarum, especially if it can be demonstrated that they were used in the reign of Mary. I really don't know anything about it, though I have a copy of a Hereford missal.Pastor in Montehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05949810648656544072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-44914642581708503402008-02-28T18:16:00.000+00:002008-02-28T18:16:00.000+00:00Thanks for posting all the Sarum Use stuff. (1) ...Thanks for posting all the Sarum Use stuff. <BR/><BR/>(1) According to Prof. Robert Wright at General Theological Seminary, NYC, after the wreckage of the Mary Rose was discovered, a public requiem for the souls of the sailors who perished was said according to the Sarum Use. It wasn't clear, however, whether the mass was celebrated by a Catholic or C of E priest.<BR/><BR/>(2) What is your opinion on whether the other more obscure uses, such as York, Westminster, Hereford, etc, were canonically abrogated? On the one hand, surely Henry's abolition of all uses but the Sarum was uncanonical. On the other hand, these Uses were no longer used.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com