tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post6031256824977949346..comments2023-11-24T06:43:02.286+00:00Comments on Aspicientes in Jesum: Out loudPastor in Montehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05949810648656544072noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-11689417888396975772008-08-16T01:18:00.000+01:002008-08-16T01:18:00.000+01:00William..."concentrating on the Eucharistic prayer...William..."concentrating on the Eucharistic prayer" is a "distraction?" No...to me, saying the rosary or otherwise zoning out into private devotions is a distraction!<BR/><BR/>Today I attended the Byzantine Rite liturgy for the Dormition. One is struck by the frequent use of the phrase "wisdom, be attentive...."<BR/><BR/>Karen<BR/>[who stood "aright and in awe" and also heard what the priest said....]gemoftheoceanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05521207668262592414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-52330534156499657862008-08-14T00:12:00.000+01:002008-08-14T00:12:00.000+01:00"Did Jesus do xyz at the Last Supper?" is always a..."Did Jesus do <I>xyz</I> at the Last Supper?" is always a problematical argument, as it invariably proves too much. Seeing it through to its logical conclusion, one ends up either with something utterly aliturgical, or with an attempted historical reconstruction. The Mass is not an historical re-enactment society (like our "Sealed Knot"), nor does its power derive from its fidelity to the detail of the original events.<BR/><BR/>It is the <I>end product</I> (if I may put it that way) of Eucharistic Consecration which is laudably presented to the people at the Elevations, at Benediction and so on, not the <I>process</I> of Consecration. My own belief is that concentrating on what is, ritually speaking, going on at the Consecration is (except for the priest, of course, for whom it is rather important!) a distraction from what is truly essential: to recognise in the consecrated elements the presence of Our Lord, and recognising to adore. What goes on in the process of getting to that point is really not what's important.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-31973727980672599002008-08-13T18:58:00.000+01:002008-08-13T18:58:00.000+01:00Ahhh... "pay NO attention to that man behind the c...Ahhh... "pay NO attention to that man behind the curtain."<BR/><BR/>Remind me....did Jesus Christ use a rood screen? didn't think so....<BR/><BR/>BTW, the elevation at the Mass came about *precisely* because the people demanded to see the consecrated Host. <BR/>Eucharistic adoration and benediction were good fallouts of that.<BR/><BR/>[And the bells were 1st used to indicate the most important parts of the Mass. Apparently, the simple, dumb people couldn't see/hear enough to know what was going on and it was getting awfully noisy in there while the priest did his thing!]<BR/><BR/>Karengemoftheoceanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05521207668262592414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-83995630200235800172008-08-13T14:02:00.000+01:002008-08-13T14:02:00.000+01:00"That's what rood-screens are for."And just in cas..."That's what rood-screens are for."<BR/><BR/>And just in case we failed to get the point – i.e. that the consecration isn't a show to be gawped at – the Eastern liturgy employs an even more definite visual barrier, the iconostasis.<BR/><BR/>Just be thankful if, in <I>ad orientem</I> celebrations, the priest does the elevations high enough for the laity to catch a glimpse of the Blessed Sacrament. There's no need for them to see anything else.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-84648887315135750482008-08-13T10:22:00.000+01:002008-08-13T10:22:00.000+01:00"I simply think the Pope was out to lunch on that ..."I simply think the Pope was out to lunch on that one."<BR/><BR/>Undoubtedly based on nothing but some deeply felt, personal hunch...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-37547803094789856542008-08-13T10:20:00.000+01:002008-08-13T10:20:00.000+01:00"[Hey, sparky, is it okay if we peasants can at le..."[Hey, sparky, is it okay if we peasants can at least WATCH and HEAR what you're doing? ]"<BR/><BR/>Er, no. That's what rood-screens are for.<BR/><BR/>Don't tell me you don't know what a rood-screen is!!<BR/><BR/>P.S. As an Australian, one thing I've consistently noted about you Yanks is how deeply you love your 1950's-style catholicism. Thank God the tradis here down under are largely over that. It's a blind alley that won't lead to solutions for any of the church's problems.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-5326178038733370392008-08-12T17:58:00.000+01:002008-08-12T17:58:00.000+01:00The only part of Mediator Dei that matters is the ...The only part of <I>Mediator Dei</I> that matters is the time-bomb of Paragraph 49, a flat-out falsehood, and the founding principle of the entire subsequent catastrophe. You can forget the rest of it.<BR/><BR/>"I am tradition!"Anagnostishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03706938507885553293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-37091583793736413712008-08-12T15:11:00.000+01:002008-08-12T15:11:00.000+01:00Gregor, we'll have to agree to disagree. I simply...Gregor, we'll have to agree to disagree. I simply think the Pope was out to lunch on that one. It's like saying "Well, we priests are educated and you peons can hardly be expected to really understand so I want to keep the canon, the most sacred part of the liturgy a deep dark secret and away from the people who wouldn't really appreciate it anyway. Go say some rosaries for us while I'm doing this important act - it's all you're capable of doing."<BR/><BR/>At least that's how it comes off to me.<BR/><BR/>There's all that stuff going on and it's like the hierarchy wants to grab it all for themselves! [Hey, sparky, is it okay if we peasants can at least WATCH and HEAR what you're doing? ]<BR/><BR/>I have noted over the last year and a half or so of reading various blogs that almost always, pictures are taken of Latin Masses from either up high in the church or at an oblique angle == wow!!! how much better to show to the rest of the world what's going on rather than standing in the back and saying "they're where now?" Granted if the rubrics are followed and everyone is standing in the right place, that helps, but if they are so insistent on silence, they may as well be speaking Chinese.<BR/><BR/>Remind me, why they switched from Greek to Latin? Oh. Right. Too many people stopped understanding Greek so they went to the common vernacular! Again, I've NO PROBLEM with the self selecting who want to be able to learn enough Latin to follow along. By and large, I bet most of them do.<BR/><BR/>But having gone through the trouble, it seems to me the least the priest could do is let them know WHERE he is!<BR/><BR/>Mediator Dei does of course acknowledge different abilities in people:<BR/>"<BR/>"108. Many of the faithful are unable to use the Roman missal even though it is written in the vernacular; nor are all capable of understanding correctly the liturgical rites and formulas. So varied and diverse are men's talents and characters that it is impossible for all to be moved and attracted to the same extent by community prayers, hymns and liturgical services. Moreover, the needs and inclinations of all are not the same, nor are they always constant in the same individual. Who, then, would say, on account of such a prejudice, that all these Christians cannot participate in the Mass nor share its fruits? On the contrary, they can adopt some other method which proves easier for certain people; for instance, they can lovingly meditate on the mysteries of Jesus Christ or perform other exercises of piety or recite prayers which, though they differ from the sacred rites, are still essentially in harmony with them."<BR/><BR/>In other words if you're not smart enough to follow along, then go ahead off into your private devotions. Feel free to step on the "short bus." But the pope shouldn't try and shove us all on the same bus.<BR/><BR/>Not that Pius XII didn't have his moments of elitism too, as evidenced by this paragraph:<BR/><BR/>"100. These methods of participation in the Mass are to be approved and recommended when they are in complete agreement with the precepts of the Church and the rubrics of the liturgy. Their chief aim is to foster and promote the people's piety and intimate union with Christ and His visible minister and to arouse those internal sentiments and dispositions which should make our hearts become like to that of the High Priest of the New Testament. However, though they show also in an outward manner that the very nature of the sacrifice, as offered by the Mediator between God and men,[102] must be regarded as the act of the whole Mystical Body of Christ, still they are by no means necessary to constitute it a public act or to give it a social character. And besides, a "dialogue" Mass of this kind cannot replace <B>the high Mass, which, as a matter of fact, though it should be offered with only the sacred ministers present, possesses its own special dignity due to the impressive character of its ritual and the magnificence of its ceremonies. </B>The splendor and grandeur of a high Mass, however, are very much increased if, as the Church desires, the people are present in great numbers and with devotion."<BR/><BR/>Gee, he's letting the peasants in? That was "mighty white" of him!gemoftheoceanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05521207668262592414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-88513674080407183202008-08-12T10:35:00.000+01:002008-08-12T10:35:00.000+01:00gemoftheocean,Mediator Dei is not encouraging the ...gemoftheocean,<BR/><BR/>Mediator Dei is not encouraging the praying of the canon <I>clara voce</I> in any way. It encourages the faithful to give the answers orginially assigned to them by the rubrics, and to sing if possible the ordinary, and to unite themselves <I>spiritually</I> to the priest praying the canon. This in no way requires that the priest prays aloud; once you are a bit familiar with the ritual actions of the canon you can easily see at which point the priest is and, if you so desire (as do I) mentally recite the canon with him. Cardinal Ratzinger, in his "Spirit of the Liturgy", devotes several pages to the silent canon, which he extols and encourages even for the Ordinary Form. I recommend reading (or re-reading) this passage.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-16600272061024319212008-08-12T09:47:00.000+01:002008-08-12T09:47:00.000+01:00I like this analsysis a lot, although I do think y...I like this analsysis a lot, although I do think you are being a bit tough on traddies, we aren't all raving loonies (even if I did snicker at the comment on the Last Supper)! <BR/><BR/>I'd point out though that there is one big group you haven't mentioned that we should perhaps care about - namely the lapsed or very intermittent attenders who might be enticed back to the faith if we get it right.<BR/><BR/>Personally I converted (technically reverted) floating on the experience of the London Oratory - then went to Australia where there wasn't anything even vaguely like it available. I fled to the TLM to escape abuses, and only gradually became won over to the view that it is inherently superior. If I hadn't been able to find a TLM or something like, I'm not sure what I would have done...<BR/><BR/>On silence, I think it makes a big difference whether or not it is a sung mass (I'm talking about chant or polyphony, not just hymns) - if is sung, the silences make sense; they work a lot less well in a said mass.<BR/><BR/>A lot of this though seems to me to be about catechesis and moving gradually - particulalry the problem of those desperately trying to follow every word in their missal. I'm not advocating a return to rosaries, but surely meditation on what is happening and the various attitudes we should be adopting at various points of the mass is just as much conscious participation as reading every word.Kate Edwardshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01000040465724868745noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-57592912179183053242008-08-11T22:36:00.000+01:002008-08-11T22:36:00.000+01:00BTW, anon 1, agree with you on the chant - but whe...BTW, anon 1, agree with you on the chant - but when I was little, and still now, I want to see what's going on. The ad-orientem is frankly, next to the "silent canon" the biggest stumbling block for me re: TLM. It's not so bad if you can grab the front row pew, oblique left or right, then I can see just enough...but God help the person sitting there if I want it. ;-D I'd make him/her an offer they couldn't refuse. [JUST kidding. Sorta.]gemoftheoceanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05521207668262592414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-46773036888431597142008-08-11T21:49:00.000+01:002008-08-11T21:49:00.000+01:00Really interesting but what about all those born p...Really interesting but what about all those born post Vat II? Surely we're the most confused? We don't know any different (so not really qualified to join any group) but we have a sneaking suspicion we might be missing out on something but we're not sure what... Are you trying to tell us that the Clapping Gloria and the group hug sign of the peace hasn't been around since 1AD?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-48832195549245872462008-08-11T18:52:00.000+01:002008-08-11T18:52:00.000+01:00An excellent posting Father which shows your keen ...An excellent posting Father which shows your keen appreciation of the grass roots situation (unlike Eccleston Square). Speaking as an ex group 3 and nearly 20 years group 5 my only other observation is that I genuinely fear that the battle for the middle ground of group 2 may take too long in becoming a fair contest to prevent this group from simply dying out. I would tend to analyse group 2 as a mixture of the elderly (obedient to the end) and young families (keen to give their children what they themselves received). Unfortunately the elderly do not have time on their side and the young families are often only going along for the benefit of the children. Sadly even young families now are deciding that what is being presented adds little to the busy schedules they have made for themselves and are not coming forward in such numbers. The largely middle aged (with their own press ganged teenagers)group 1 is on its own road to nowhere in religious terms despite the fact that all its members have spent years collecting lay ministries like scout badges. Its average age will simply continue to grow as its members get older and the Paris riots, Vietnam and Woodstock become history rather than memory. Group 3 will simply disappear in a "puff of hermeneutic" once the Vatican's process of reconciling neo-conservatism with the Church's tradition is complete while group 4 will merge with group 5 once Masses in the EF become more widespread, regular and at more suitable times on a Sunday morning.<BR/><BR/>In short my prediction is no battle will actually have to be joined. All that is required is a level playing field and the passage of time will do the rest.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-36375877918980213452008-08-11T18:31:00.000+01:002008-08-11T18:31:00.000+01:00"like nuts in a box, you only need a small ha..."like nuts in a box, you only need a small handful to make a loud noise" - Boom! Boom!<BR/><BR/>You make a key point when you say that Group 2 is nearly all lay, and that Group 1 includes most of the clergy.<BR/><BR/>I'd like to make two comments on this extremely thoughtful analysis, which might usefully become the foundation for some very serious research:<BR/><BR/>first, that the fact that most of the clergy are in Group 1, while most of the laity are in the other groups testifies to a complete and abject failure of leadership (whichever group God might actually like his people to be in). <BR/><BR/>Second, the Catholic Church in E&W has no mechanism for engaging with its people, nor do its constituent dioceses. The Anglicanisation of the Church since 1970 means that there are lots of committees and groups, all of which attract the bossy and articulate middle classes, who, while typical of your Group 1, are completely untypical of the Church at large.Ttonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15185875893212146794noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-39704336917758013182008-08-11T17:49:00.000+01:002008-08-11T17:49:00.000+01:00count me in the group that wants to hear the pries...count me in the group that wants to hear the priest all the time!!! [and in that respect I don't care what rite it is] people who don't want to hear the priest will zone out anyway. Dunno about you but when I put a record on, I use the volume. I especially want to hear the most important part of the Mass. i.e. the Canon. <BR/><BR/>In reading Mediator Dei by Pius XII it seemed pretty clear to me that although people *could* do rosaries and other things he was basing that on different people's abilities. But it seems to me, that if I am given intellect enough to follow the latin and be on the same page as the priest in order to unite with him at the same moment, *then that is the PREFERENCE.*<BR/><BR/>Mediator Dei pretty much says that outright:<BR/><BR/>"104. Let the faithful, therefore, consider to what a high dignity they are raised by the sacrament of baptism. They should not think it enough to participate in the eucharistic sacrifice with that general intention which befits members of Christ and children of the Church, but let them further, in keeping with the spirit of the sacred liturgy, be most closely united with the High Priest and His earthly minister, at the time the consecration of the divine Victim is enacted, and at that time especially when those solemn words are pronounced, "By Him and with Him and in Him is to Thee, God the Father almighty, in the unity of the Holy Ghost, all honor and glory for ever and ever";[101] to these words in fact the people answer, "Amen." Nor should Christians forget to offer themselves, their cares, their sorrows, their distress and their necessities in union with their divine Savior upon the cross."<BR/><BR/>and the "bingo" paragraph:<BR/><BR/>"105. Therefore, they are to be praised who, with the idea of getting the Christian people to take part more easily and more fruitfully in the Mass, strive to make them familiar with the "Roman Missal," so that the faithful, united with the priest, may pray together in the very words and sentiments of the Church. They also are to be commended who strive to make the liturgy even in an external way a sacred act in which all who are present may share. This can be done in more than one way, when, for instance, the whole congregation, in accordance with the rules of the liturgy, either answer the priest in an orderly and fitting manner, or sing hymns suitable to the different parts of the Mass, or do both, or finally in high Masses when they answer the prayers of the minister of Jesus Christ and also sing the liturgical chant."<BR/><BR/>Gee, somehow when the people all still did understand Latin, I have the feeling that that's how it was!<BR/><BR/>But I must say, that I was a little uncomfortable with Fr. Tim Finnegan's power point slide show that he had put up a while back (and your own comments) - it's sort of a "head pat of low expectations." Now, yes, not everyone, will be able to follow, and Mediator Dei admits as much that people have "different talents." Please remember that some of us WANT to follow. And we can't follow you if we can't HEAR you. "general in the ball park" really isn't good enough for our segment of the Catholic populace. You're asking us to be less than we can be!<BR/><BR/>For me to watch "the pretty pictures" and zone off into my private devotions would be giving less then I could. I'd prefer aiming at a higher standard of expectations.gemoftheoceanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05521207668262592414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-73318297431164311362008-08-11T10:55:00.000+01:002008-08-11T10:55:00.000+01:00A most interesting analysis but I would suggest th...A most interesting analysis but I would suggest there is a least another, sixth category.<BR/><BR/>The sixth category would be the diverse group who have tired of the changes of the last half-century, tired of the arguments from other sides (particularly those from Groups 1 & 5) and have simply walked away from it all.<BR/><BR/>A small minority of these have embraced Orthodoxy, a larger sub-group have found the Established Church welcoming and more stable and, the largest sector, has adopted a mild agnosticism or indifferentism and do not attend any regular chrurch service.<BR/><BR/>In the late '40s and the 1950's there was the Vernacular Society and the latest Continental Liturgical Movement fashion of <I>versus populum</I> celebrations and calls for 'active participation'. Then came the excitement of the Council, <I>Sacrosanctam Concilium</I>, ordering the simplification of rites to make their essential meaning more clear and the New Orders of Mass of 1964, 1967 and then 1969.<BR/><BR/>Now there is clearly there is the opposite tendency: the protagonists for Latin and for pre-Conciliar praxis are the fashion of the day.<BR/><BR/>IMHO the important, and unanswered, question has to be what was, and is, wrong with Catholic liturgy? From earlier last Century writers such as Fortescue felt there should be change (c.f. preface to Ceremonies of the Roman Rite Descried), such thoughts were developed by the Liturgical Movement with the encouragement and support of a succession of popes. Changes indeed came and we appear to have now come almost full circle yet there is the, at least, implicit desire that change in the right direction (or rite) would solve the problem.<BR/><BR/>I suspect the answer is actually not about the texts and ceremonies at all but one of attitude and disposition.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-63567045418294609082008-08-11T10:12:00.000+01:002008-08-11T10:12:00.000+01:00Interesting summary... but you've left out the gro...Interesting summary... but you've left out the group who were not against the EF in the past, and thought it ought to be available for those who wanted it... and now that it is allowed have attended it more and more and realised what a beautiful and sacred thing the liturgy is...<BR/><BR/>...and are hopping mad that they've been denied it for the past 40 years, being given lousy translations and dreary hymns as a poor substitute!!<BR/><BR/>;-)Mulier Fortishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01186202810919174492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-70610710569070358652008-08-11T09:51:00.000+01:002008-08-11T09:51:00.000+01:00Re (3), where I ruefully have to confess I recogni...Re (3), where I ruefully have to confess I recognise myself, I suggest that a large sub-group, possibly most of that group, would prefer ad orientem. The same people would probably want to see a lot more use of chant too.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com