tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post6109133811260094935..comments2023-11-24T06:43:02.286+00:00Comments on Aspicientes in Jesum: Revolution 2Pastor in Montehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05949810648656544072noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-10135979796947888022011-11-10T04:07:05.494+00:002011-11-10T04:07:05.494+00:00Give me a break. The historical records available ...Give me a break. The historical records available for study of the Council are enormous. They include the published journals of key figures such as Chenu, Congar and de Lubac, and the papers of a great many influential figures on the progressive wing are preserved in the Centre for the Study of the Second Vatican Council at Leuven. These records make it clear that the leaders of the progresive majority at the Council rejected Catholic dogmas on the Church, the eucharist, revelation, biblical inspiration, and other issues. As for a lack of malice; this malice was clearly present during the Council in the propaganda mounted by these leaders against those who opposed them. The malice they showed after the Council in pursuit of their ends is well known. Father, if you have even a basic knowledge of the events of the Council and afterward, I can only say that your attempt to deny the existence of bad faith and malice among the leadership of the progressive faction in the Church is corrupt and unprincipled.John Lamontnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-23921768923069880702011-10-24T17:29:01.614+01:002011-10-24T17:29:01.614+01:00Father, it might be worth exploring (in a footnote...Father, it might be worth exploring (in a footnote if this ever becomes the three volume blockbuster is surely deserves to be) the activities of Benelux, French, German and Italian Bishops in the light of their experiences in WWII. Here was a group of people who one might think were looking for something positive to rub out something very negative in their recent past.Ttonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15185875893212146794noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-89844908802184233622011-10-24T16:47:16.883+01:002011-10-24T16:47:16.883+01:00vetusta ecclesia:
I am stunned that I had never he...vetusta ecclesia:<br />I am stunned that I had never heard of Tony Castle's book: given that I have just finished a book on St John's Seminary myself, and, I thought, exhaustively researched for it, I am simply amazed that I never encountered the book, nor did anyone ever mention it to me!<br />I have just ordered myself a copy, and shall be sure to be sitting down when I read it.<br />Thank you for the information.Pastor in Montehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05949810648656544072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-73922060669075397172011-10-24T13:28:28.586+01:002011-10-24T13:28:28.586+01:00...or, the party line changed, but the former auth......or, the party line changed, but the former authoritarian instincts and reflexes remained unaffected (resulting in the worst of both worlds).<br /><br />Nice job, Father - keep'em coming.Anagnostishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03706938507885553293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-3971614781225196592011-10-24T11:23:35.657+01:002011-10-24T11:23:35.657+01:00Indeed, absolute uniformity and a swift and decisi...Indeed, absolute uniformity and a swift and decisive repression of anyone who strays off the Roman Way was one of the more distinctive marks of the Tridentine Era, at least by the end.<br /><br />cf: the Freemason panic and the modernism panic.<br /><br />This is why the SSPX can only be understood as a post-Vatican II phenomenon..https://www.blogger.com/profile/04611694996611765479noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-50721451943783914482011-10-24T07:33:40.870+01:002011-10-24T07:33:40.870+01:00But uniformity was absolutely the order of the day...But uniformity was absolutely the order of the day, and had been for fifty years beforehand.Pastor in Montehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05949810648656544072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-92186089328880777622011-10-24T07:30:51.995+01:002011-10-24T07:30:51.995+01:00Your theory of good-willed but misguided bishops i...Your theory of good-willed but misguided bishops is nice, but the brutal persecution of priests who continued to say the TLM does not fit that theory.<br />Priests were being suspended for saying the TLM, I know of one priest who completely lost his pension for the crime of saying the TLM. He had to work in a secular job until his death to make his living.<br /><br />Furthermore, almost the entire episcopate was replaced shortly after Vatican II, due to the introduction of the age limits. Other Pius XII bishops were forced to retire even in their 50s and 60s, if they declined to destroy their diocese.B.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-23250784492650653812011-10-24T06:14:28.777+01:002011-10-24T06:14:28.777+01:00Not off-base at all, in my view. I incline the sam...Not off-base at all, in my view. I incline the same way on those matters.Pastor in Montehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05949810648656544072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-56012648801555053512011-10-24T00:24:26.900+01:002011-10-24T00:24:26.900+01:00I am beginning to think that the failure of variou...I am beginning to think that the failure of various post-Vatican II initiatives (and the way they've been understood, that is, throw off everything and whip out the guitars and the open-toed sandals) is as much an implicit criticism of what we might call the Tridentine Church (or at least, what the Tridentine Church was by c.1965) as it is of either the Vatican Council or the fruits of that Council.<br /><br />I do not mean by this: the Council of Trent was wrong, nor that the pre-V2 Church was wrong; but that things had... ossified, perhaps. Understandings of how things ere meant to work had been lost, and the increasing Thomism of the Church had brought with it an approach to every aspect which was essentially functionalist.<br /><br />As an example, in theory the 'loosening' of central control in the Church after V2 should have led to a collegiate structure as in the Orthodox churches, full of strong, traditional... orthodox bishops who fiercely defend the ancient faith on their patch and watch one another for backsliding, too, instead of bishops who send everything to Rome. What we got, needless to say, was... not that.<br /><br /> And I wonder how much of this was because one understanding of episcopacy was given primacy in the pre-V2 Church, to the exclusion of others (which remained theoretically understood, if omitted and increasingly ignored).<br /><br />But I may be thoroughly 'off-base' here..https://www.blogger.com/profile/04611694996611765479noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-20336080885140865622011-10-23T22:54:53.256+01:002011-10-23T22:54:53.256+01:00Fr. M.Hollings retreat at Wonersh in 1963 might ha...Fr. M.Hollings retreat at Wonersh in 1963 might have been "electrifying" (my late brother was one of the ordinands attending)but Tony Castle's book on the Class of '63 makes one feel that that this zeitgeist was not what they needed.vetusta ecclesiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09454059029260192711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-26170401551089451122011-10-23T20:09:20.783+01:002011-10-23T20:09:20.783+01:00What I mean is that if one is going to apportion b...What I mean is that if one is going to apportion blame, let it be a fair judgement, and to make a fair judgement, one must genuinely try to understand all sides of an argument.<br />That is why I dislike 'yah-boo' disputes intensely. They demean all concerned.Pastor in Montehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05949810648656544072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-6023354376547292192011-10-23T20:05:47.587+01:002011-10-23T20:05:47.587+01:00B flat
Yes, you are right. That was precisely the ...B flat<br />Yes, you are right. That was precisely the failure. And though the defection of priests and religious was one cause of the vocations crisis, the drying up of recruits was another, and continues to be a problem (though there might be one or two green shoots appearing, please God).<br /><br />Plus, of course, I have not finished what I want to write about this period, so don't think I have said all I want to say. There is a lot more to come, if I can find enough time.Pastor in Montehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05949810648656544072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-28907122217373608352011-10-23T18:18:56.917+01:002011-10-23T18:18:56.917+01:00But as you say yourself, Father, in the 1950's...But as you say yourself, Father, in the 1950's, the missionary spirit in the Church was very strong, the level of commitment among lay people was high.<br />The flock of Christ had shepherds, who showed themselves to be blind guides in the wave of unreasoned enthusiasm which overwhelmed the western world in the 1960's.<br />Whatever its pronouncements said on paper, the Vatican Council was seen as the mover of change in the Church, and the bishops neither guided this to fruitful development, nor did anything to prevent wholesale destruction of what had seemed vibrant and sound twenty years before. An example:- The vocations crisis was not a falling away of seminary candidates, but a mass defection of serving clergy in the late 60's and early 70's. I am sure this pained every bishop; but what did they actually <i> do</i> to cure the cause, or even identify it?<br />I am left with the impression that they tried to fix what was working very well, and so reduced it to a condition that if not irretrievably broken, is certainly malfunctioning up to now.B flathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17611595580578224726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-25187517736068311402011-10-23T13:48:16.359+01:002011-10-23T13:48:16.359+01:00A lie is a deliberate untruth—no, I don't thin...A lie is a deliberate untruth—no, I don't think they lied. I think that they wondered if this was really 'what the Spirit was saying to the Church'. If they had a crystal ball and knew where it would lead, then they might have done differently. I hope.<br />I really mean it about trying charitably to try and understand what was in their minds. These were not malicious people, and until we make a real attempt to understand them, we will never really understand what went wrong.Pastor in Montehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05949810648656544072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4807826652341078989.post-6761776937980331872011-10-23T13:37:21.549+01:002011-10-23T13:37:21.549+01:00"And that is what greeted the bishops when th..."And that is what greeted the bishops when they returned to their dioceses; a Church on fire with the prospect of exciting and radical change. <br /><br /><br />What were the bishops to do? ... the majority decided to ride the wave and go for popularity."<br /><br />So they bleated about how good everything was, even as the world fell about their ears. <br /><br />In short, they lied.Felixnoreply@blogger.com